So I'm watching this town hall...

**Gotch** · August 11th, 2009, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Biggin

its funny how we are so concered about rights now, but it wasnt that big a deal when the patriot act was enacted.

i think before we can act like the government is great bout our rights, we have to have the patriot act repealed.

telling people they cant protest seems like a small issue compared to illegal wire taps and no knock warrants and surveilence without indictments.

that's an entirely different issue. I'm not in favor of the patriot act either, but it has nothing to do with this.

**CoeburnCane** · August 11th, 2009, 05:00 PM

I think the questions that need to be asked are, for one, why are these belligerent protestors being so outspoken? Is it because they truly are concerned about healthcare? If so, why not join in the civil discussion of a town hall meeting instead of inciting people to shouts of protest and threats of violence?

Is it because they don't want these town halls to take place AT ALL? If so, why do they feel that a discussion on health care reform, with both sides at the table, is such a bad thing?

My personal answer to that last piece is that they probably don't think it's a bad thing. They've been provoked by the lies coming out of these GOP PAC's/pharma/insurance corps regarding govt forced euthanasia and that sort of thing that they're scared to death will be in a bill. They're scared and irrational, and they can't join in a rational discussion w/o acting this way.

They've been duped. Not by Obama, not by the people who have written the versions of this reform floating around--but by the GOP PAC's/pharma/insurance corps, who are using the control they have over these people due to the fear they've instilled.

Prime example is the elderly lady at one of these town meetings who listened to one of these GOP PAC offshoot orgs, and made the comment that she wanted the govt to leave health care alone, that she didn't trust the govt, and to not touch her Medicare! Big flaw in that statement, and she believe a lie. Why? Because she was scared to death, and rationality was taken from her by her fear. She didn't stop to realize that Medicare IS govt run health care. She parroted a talking point b/c she was scared due to what she had been told by a GOP PAC offshoot org.

I'm not righteously indignant, I'm ****ed off. Taking advantage of people who are uninformed by lying to them about something they care about, then using them as puppets to do the GOP's & corporate America's bidding is sickening. You call it an American staple, I call it sidestepping the issue in a cowardly manner.

**Biggin** · August 11th, 2009, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Gotch

It certainly does not fall under inciting a riot. It would fall under disorderly conduct under most normal conditions, but the high courts have repeatedly found that if a charge of disorderly conduct infringed upon the right to freedom of speech the law was not applicable.

I'm not sure about PTA meeting but a few local governments have lost large suits or been forced to settle for damages out of court due to ejecting loud protesters. Happened just recently in Minnesota.

But thats a razor thin line.
When does disorderly conduct hold up? how far does it extend? thats all judicial matters.

and if someone is standing outside an event rallying people to storm the arena and ruin a presentation, then it certainly is inciting a riot.

how can we, as citizens, know how far the rights extend? there is no clear cut definition of infringing on anothers rights. some might consider picketing signs harming their rights to free enterprise, while some thing freedom of speech overrules the rights of privacy.

and i just threw the patriot act in to let people know that are rights are constantly being violated day after day by this heinous piece of legislature, ran thru congress during a time of distress by opportunistic politicians looking to force their morals and views on others by spying.

**Gotch** · August 11th, 2009, 05:19 PM

"You call it an American staple, I call it sidestepping the issue in a cowardly manner."

Which, if you make a careful study of U.S. history is more American than apple pie and baseball, age old tradition in this country. Both sides have been guilty in the past, in fact sides that no longer even exist have done it.

I don't disagree that it is distasteful. My issue is with people who call for it to be stopped, Thus infringing on freedom of speech and setting a very, very dangerous precedence.

"When does disorderly conduct hold up? how far does it extend? thats all judicial matters."

Yes it is, and matters very much like this have made several trips through the courts. They are fully within their rights.

**Gotch** · August 11th, 2009, 05:24 PM

I really believe that a lot of the "shock" is stemming from the fact that it's coming from the right. The right and the center is so use to seeing the left do these types of things that they just sort of go ho-hum and go on. The left is not use to being targeted by these types of tactics and are in a bit of shock right now.

**Gotch** · August 11th, 2009, 05:27 PM

I didn't watch the vid of Olbermann, but then I wouldn't watch one of Rush either. I value my time too much for either.

**Gotch** · August 11th, 2009, 05:41 PM

I'm for some sort of common sense health care reform, I'd like to see a one payer system myself, but health care reform is not worth losing any part of our freedom of speech for.

**Biggin** · August 11th, 2009, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Gotch

I really believe that a lot of the "shock" is stemming from the fact that it's coming from the right. The right and the center is so use to seeing the left do these types of things that they just sort of go ho-hum and go on. The left is not use to being targeted by these types of tactics and are in a bit of shock right now.

see gotch, this is what i dont get
you say you have no bias, then you post something like that, which simply isnt true.

possibly the most heinous of these types of acts came from the GOP.

remember the Nixon candidacy? he didnt authorize people to do stuff exactly like what is going on?
sending memo's on stolen letterheads
assigning people to try and plant bugs in the DNC building?
getting people to go to rallies for the democrats and sabotage them?

**Gotch** · August 11th, 2009, 05:58 PM

You're confusing dirty tricks with raising h-e double hockey sticks. I agree that the gop has done plenty of dirty stuff over the years, I'm talking about being loud and obnoxious.